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AI Challenge Forums • View topic - 2 neighbors map are bad !

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2 neighbors map are bad !

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2 neighbors map are bad !

Postby tictac » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:37 am

This post could be viewd as a generalisation of some other rants complaining about such map such map as "bad".

I think that all maps where you have have 2 nearest neighbors are bad (i am most ly talking about 1 hill maps): this obvisously includes all 3 players map.
here is why:
you have 3 player A, B,C . after the initial dev phase, most of the time, each player will concentrate its efforts on one opponent.
Note that i dont just talk about explicit code where you sned your main forcea against one hill : even with bots without such code, pur luck would have you find one hill befoer the other, or encouter a bigger force of one of your opponents that the other etc..

so after a while most of the case you have 2*2*2 configuation depending on who attacks who:
-A attacks B , B attacks C, C attacks A (circular -fair)
-A attacks B , B attacks A, C attacks B (unfair for B)
-A attacks B , B attacks C, C attacks B (unfair for B)
-A attacks B , B attacks A, C attacks A (unfair for A)
-A attacks C , B attacks C, C attacks A (unfair for C)
-A attacks C , B attacks A, C attacks B (circular - fair)
-A attacks C , B attacks C, C attacks B (unfair for C)
-A attacks C , B attacks A, C attacks A (unfair for A)

so you have 3 chance over 4 of one of the player at a great disadvantage from the start.

Of course a better bot might handle it better against 2 weaker opponents and win , but against bots of the same strength luck is a major factor.

if you have more than 3 players, but set in a "string" so that each one is close to 2 the same kind of phenomena arise:
some players are often screwed from the start.
as an example a 3p game that i happened to have won so there is no whining on my part:


around turn 300-400 orange is involved in a fight with white that consumes a lot of his ressources and get destroyed by blue.
Meanwhile blue had nothing to defend against.
i think this pattern is super frequent in 3p maps

of course this kind of luck with opponents is prevetns for all but the 1v1 maps BUT i feel it is most visible in the1 hill, 32p maps or generally maps with 2 neighbors
so i don t think those maps are good with 3 bots of likewise strength
tictac
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Re: 2 neighbors map are bad !

Postby dimkadimon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:56 am

I agree - these kind of maps involve too much luck for opponents of same strength and should be removed. I also want to add that a similar unfair phenomenon can happen on 2-neighbour maps with more than 3 players.
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Re: 2 neighbors map are bad !

Postby McLeopold » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:53 am

That map has translational symmetry and is the epitome of fairness. With three similar bots small differences in the details of the game can push the win to any bot. So an individual game may not demonstrate equal strength. Over the course of several games, these should even out.

These maps will not be throw out. Part of the game is to figure out how to deal with some bad luck.
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Re: 2 neighbors map are bad !

Postby bluegaspode » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:15 am

Personally I think the following map looks like a 6 vs. 6 map, but is essentially a 2 vs. 2 map in the first 200 rounds

http://aichallenge.org/visualizer.php?g ... &user=6481

The likelyhood that one of the opposing forces overwhelms the other in the very beginning is very high.
But still they are ranked against all other 5 enemies.

Somewhat similar but less critical, because there are some open spots is the following:
http://aichallenge.org/visualizer.php?g ... &user=6481

You at least will have a chance of seeing at least three of your opponents and might be able to fight a way out (or score some points if one of the three is weaker than you).

I'd love to see if maps like these will be preferred: http://aichallenge.org/visualizer.php?g ... &user=6481 as you actually have quite the same distance to almost every enemy hill, so they look "fairer" to me (at least given that the ranking matches you against every enemy).
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